We already know that all the temps in Manhattan are insecure wannabes, angry that the world can get along without them; it's amazing anyone with a blog would actually pander to these vast infirmities.

Lovely, I'm glad this chick had such an open mind about our fair city.

I'm embarrassed for her and Gawker.

Actually, that's just Gawker's M.O.: being as obnoxious as possible to the non-NYC portions of the country. I wouldn't take it or Gawker all that seriously.

Justin is right. Also, before anymore New York bashing comments come up, Elizabeth Spiers is from Alabama. Blame them, not us. Most New Yorkers love SoCal, myself included.

When's the last time you heard anybody say tubular? When Sean Penn was in movie high school.

LA is actually the biggest book-selling market in the country. When I moved here from NYC, my friends made fun of me, and told me I'd have nobody to talk to. My smart friends knew differently. Last week, Elizabeth Spiers came to two LA writer gatherings -- some of the intellectual duds in attendance were: Mickey Kaus (Slate/Kausfiles.com), Cathy Seipp, Michael Isikof (of Newsweek), Gabriel Snyder, Emmanuelle Richard, Heather Macdonald (of City Journal), Scott Kaufer, Alan Mayer, Ned Zeman, Matt Welch, and Jill Stewart. I don't believe the word "tubular" was uttered once, but I'll have to check the C-Span transcript.

Say, is Cal-bashing all that prominent a phenomenon? I mean, if all you read were blogs you'd conclude it was the greatest place in the world.

New Yorkers bash SoCal like crazy, out of nothing beyond insecurity. These self-professed intellectuals, who do nothing but watch television and smoke cigarettes on the grimy and monochromatic grid of Manhattan, are immediately overwhelmed by the complexity and diversity of Los Angeles. They visit for 3 days, take the effort see nothing beyond Hollywood and rich parts of West L.A., and then call the city "superficial." It's a hoot, but I guess I'd also be intimidated by this place if I were too meek to get behind the wheel of the car.

Hey, I say "tubular," a lot. I also say "awesome." What's up with that?

(Here's an interesting aside. A couple of years ago, my wife and I were thinking... for a very brief time... of moving to NY. When we told our NY friends, they looked at us as if we were crazy. "And leave LA?" they said "Everyone we know here wants to move out there." Apparently Ms. Spiers wasn't one of them... or then maybe nobody offered her a deal.)

There was supposed to be an L.A. version of Gawker. Hello, L.A. Examiner?

Tubular and awesome aren't all the odd. But do you call something really "cherry"? Or "Cherried out" ?

But as for the book market, buyin' ain't readin'. I know producers who buy multi-copies of the best sellers and then scatter them, artfully, at home,at the office, etc.

Tubular and awesome are very popular words -- to anyone who went into a coma in the 80s and just woke up yesterday.

At the risk of explaining the joke, Gawker's gimmick is to be 170% Manhattan-centric, and do unto non-Manhattan locations (especially San Francisco) what Jim Murray used to do opposing teams' cities. It's funny. And it's also one of the reasons why a Gawker West would have a tough time working here -- we're not insecure enough for that type of bravado, and rubbing other people's faces in their own poor geographical decisions would be poor sportsmanship.

I'm not sure the joke needed to be explained as much as improved. Murray is a good analogy, in that the part of his shtick that was about zinging locales other than his own became a cliche a long, long time ago. Still funny on occasion, but to work (for me) the observing eye has to be pretty original. Sounds like people don't think Gawker came close.

My problem with it was that she could have poked fun at stuff that's out there now -- people with pierced everything, how the LA city hobby seems to be driving with one's head up one's ass, etc. -- and been funny. Instead, she got down on lame stuff that's circa approximately 1983, if you'll excuse a weak attempt at estimating the exact year. It's like she wasn't even here -- just watched a bunch of old movies. At least she didn't resort to schtick on fern bars.

A few things: First, Matt got it exactly right. There were things I liked about LA, but Gawker isn't the place for a "things I liked about LA" post. As for the accusations that I used tired old cliches, my LA friends came up with half of those lists--in particular, the bit about turning into an idiot as soon as you cross the city limits. Four different LA residents in completely separate instances told me that.

And to explain another joke (*sigh*), the voice on gawker is an *alter ego.* i definitely have that side to my personality, but i'm not perpetually snarky, and i'm certainly not insecure about my geographic decisions. it's not like anything prevents me from moving to LA, if i so choose. i haven't done it, because at least for now, i *prefer* new york. (I know that may be hard for you to believe, but it's true.) also--"tubular" was uttered, just not at your writer's gathering. And judging from the landslide of "Dude, you're harshing on my city! ha ha!" emails I got, i think most LA Gawker readers actually *liked* the lists.

Why did Elizabeth's friends have to come up with a list for her? I thought paid writers were supposed to do their own work. Maybe she should distribute some funds to her friends for doing the work for her.

L.A. like any city, has excellent qualities and not so excellent qualities. I loved it and I *prefer* it to New York.

"it's not like anything prevents me from moving to LA, if i so choose. i haven't done it, because at least for now, i *prefer* new york."

Because, of course, LA and New York are the only two cities in the entire world.

" I thought paid writers were supposed to do their own work. "

Well, that's where you kind of have it wrong. Elizabeth Speirs is not a real writer, she's a hack who worked her social connections in New York to land a blogging gig (which she's about to ditch to write gossip elsewhere). This little blogging gig in turn hoodwinked an increasingly low-standards driven media to into believing she has a clue and actually allowing her to write for money at print publications. The very fact that she responded to the jabs at her on this board proves, not that she's good down to earth sport, but that inside she 'knows' she's a hack and must explain her hack writing. Talented writers are good enough not to have to come back and explain their jokes. She is, ironically, a joke.

p.s. For the record, if I had to choose between Spiers' native Alabama and L.A., I would haul ass into L.A. so fast it would make Spiers' poseur vision blur. I've been to SoCal dozens of times, and I love it. Yours, from Manhattan, NYC.

I would like to believe that anyone who has spent any time at all- even 5 minutes - in Southern California walks away with a sense of how unique we are here. Apparently Spiers kept her eyes and her ears firmly shut the entire visit.

I'd say having a hissy fit about an obvious gag list is as about as telling as it gets.

Gag list? How about checking out a real gag list?
This is funny!

"Because, of course, LA and New York are the only two cities in the entire world."

If you want to make a living as a paid writer they seem to be the best options, and LA even more so. But of course, if I lived in say, the midwest or something, I am sure that there are tons of paying writing jobs for the out of work writer.

It would seem LA can survive without some people just fine. See you later Elizabeth.

wow. i'm in total amazement that this has stirred up such a shitstorm. i'll definitely think twice about criticizing egg white omelettes next time. i didn't know it was such a sacred cow. i just put up further elaboration on explaining-the-joke on my site (in the comments) if people want to continue making comments about my IQ--or lack thereof, as it were.

and to "real new yorker"--i think that's the first time in history i've been described as having social connections. if it weren't so funny, i might get offended. if you want to know how i got the gawker gig (my publisher was reading my personal blog and thought it was funny) or my freelance work (editors contacted me directly because they were reading gawker and liked it) all you have to do is ask. and sure, maybe if my writing were better, i wouldn't have to explain the joke. that's certainly a possibility. or it could just be that i'm not so dismissive of people on this board--especially the ones that i've met--that i "won't stoop" to respond. but hey, at least i sign my name and take responsibility for what *i* write, which doesn't appear to be the case with you.

Didn't anyone read the whole list? It was funny (poor Army--he can't help it if all his friends are dead.) I say things just like those remarks every day and I love living in LA. Jeez, what a bunch of whiners. Do you all work for the Weekly?

"or it could just be that i'm not so dismissive of people on this board--especially the ones that i've met--that i 'won't stoop' to respond."

Oh, riiiiight, which is why you responded (brilliantly I might add) to my post above, right? What a freaking child. You're not ready. Go back to Alabama and regroup.

"but hey, at least i sign my name and take responsibility for what *i* write, which doesn't appear to be the case with you."

My name is Ms. Looking At The End Of Your Flashy But Brief Pseudo Writing Career. You can take satisfaction from one thing though, you definitely have us all laughing "now," but probably not for the reasons you intended. ;^)

"If you want to make a living as a paid writer they seem to be the best options, and LA even more so."

Oh, well, that. Yeah.

Sometimes the less said the better.

Elizabeth, don't feel bad, not everyone can be mean and funny at the same time. This is especially the case if they are just mean and not funny.

Well, it's all in good fun.

Yes it is, until someone gets hurt.

Oh-kayyy...

We Dumangelenos spell that The Weakly. Don't like them unfun commies much neither.

"real new yorker"--or should i just call you "anonymous coward", along with the other people who so bravely posted under pseudonyms?: you seem a little bitter and little too personally interested. so i'm curious. why exactly do you care that i get paid to write? no one's forcing you to read my stuff.

Elizabeth dear, I see plenty of your supporters not leaving valid addresses. Let's not be hypocritical sweetheart.

Elizabeth dear, it would seem that plenty of your supporters aren't using valid email addresses.

Let's not be hypocritical, sweetheart.

I meant it both times too.

What a wonderful little conversation. Started out fairly reasonable and interesting, then ended in a total flame match. Ahhhh, the internet. Gotta love it.

Geez, who knew one little joke that didn't quite connect would set this off. For what it's worth, I posted the Gawker item not because I was offended, or even trolling for hits. It was just an L.A. item out in the blog/media world that merited a small comment. If it's not obvious, I saw it because I read Gawker when I'm looking for a New York fix, and for the most part like it. Those who came here to anonymously attack Elizabeth Spiers or spread rumors are, as usual, the despicable lowlifes of the Net.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz... not a funny list... we can all watch HBO's weekly tribute to the shallowness of NYC's self-involved wannabe elite. It's called Sex In The City. L.A. is a lot of bad things, but we are not responsible for US Magazine, The Hilton Sisters or Carson Daly. No amount of tofu-thinking can ever out-shallow that trio. We may have Ahnuld, but you morons elected Bloomberg. And just like us, you haven't had a professional football team in years. I do not love L.A., but the Big City out-vacuouses us every single time.

Unfortunately, David, we are responsible for Carson Daly, who was discovered while DJing at KROQ.
Luckily, we're not responsible for the tool that he became.

Yet another example that funny writing is difficult.

It's about as witty and obvious as KROQ DJs making fun of the 909 area code. I mean, tubular?

It's like Jeff Foxworthy ripoff; "You might be an Angeleno if ..." But he wasn't very funny, either.

>>Yet another example that funny writing is difficult

Alan sums it up nicely.

How's this for a despicable low life rumor: Elizabeth Spears is about to leave Gawker to work her gossip *magic* for a major publication. Amateur blogger Jen from Gothamist will be landing the gig at Gawker, which will probably improve the fortunes of Gawker, Nick, and Jen, and give the opportunity to read some good writing for a change. You heard it hear first. ;^)

oopsy! You heard it *here* first! chow!

Ms. NuYawk - Spiers, not Spears. (Pronounced SPY-ers.) I think you need to check your sources. I haven't been *offered* a gossip gig so i'm pretty sure i'm not leaving for one. page six stints every now and then are fun, but I'm wholly uninterested in celebrities and have no plans to become a full-time gossip columnist. and unless nick's planning to fire me--and he'd tell me ahead of time if that were the case--i don't think I'm getting replaced anytime soon.

This is all so much fun!
I would have been terribly, terribly disappointed if Elizabeth (in her Gawker guise) hadn't skewered L.A. culture. Well okay, she didn't exactly skewer it. More of a light roasting. And look how worked up you are over a light roasting. Anonymous personal attacks, very classy!

L.A. and NYC are incredibly easy to poke fun at, and I love them both. But what do I know, I live in Minneapolis.

And it's "ciao," not "chow."

By the by, many Spanish speakers have adopted "ciao" as an informal and casual dispatch and they spell it "chow". This seems point out something both LA and NY people acttually have in common: culturally and multi-lingually challanged.

Or even challenged.

Liz, there are several reasons why you are being rightfully scolded, but I'll point out what seems primary. I think everyone, east coast and west coast, is absolutely tired of "everybody" being snarky, or having biting wit wrapped in hipster contempt of all but one's personal cabal or the icon of the moment. I think you represent the embodiment of that tired cliché, that we are all tired of, and so you are getting the flame that is meant not just for you, but for many others. But what I think makes your transgression even more repugnant, is that you actually take off the mask and tell us, "hey guys, that's just my 'snarky' persona, I'm really a cool person." B-llsh-t. If you were really cool, you would realize that pretending to be an assh-le is a far greater crime than actually being one. Chris Hitchens, who you seem to love to quote, is often a genuine insufferable ass who makes no apologies for being an ass. Often I don't like him, but I have a certain respect for his honesty when presenting his venomous positions.

You, on the other hand, are a self-admitted poseur throwing rotten eggs at various icons, movements, etc. with a false 'edge' of candor and frankness. I suspect, in fact, that your wide open Alabama backwoods eyes pretty much love/are fascinated by most of what you consume/are fed, but you pretend to be snarky because it's "cool." This is commonly known as "high school" behavior. You're an adult, so you don't get the Ghost World faux snark pass, people actually expect you to mean what you say and be a genuine person. There's a difference between good old hyperbolic gossip writing (Musto), and flat out pretending to have a divergent opinion of popular culture (you). The fact that you're getting mainstream writing gigs in your snark 'persona' is just further evidence of the decline of U.S. media and that we can no longer believe 'anything' we read, no matter if it's positive, negative, left, right, center, mainstream, or even from a tiny blog. Now, even little upstarts like you no longer have any problem b-llsh-tting us anymore. THIS is why people, on both coasts, are flaming you. They want interesting, honestly written stories. Not acting.

Remove Romenesko from your link list and add this (http://www.backstage.com/backstage/casting/index.jsp), it's far more honest, appropriate and will probably get you farther towards where you are 'really' trying to go. Good luck, break a leg.

Spelling lessons free to all who care. Some are so refined it hurts.

You know you Live In Los Angeles if:

* Your coworker tells you s/he has 8 body piercings: none are visible.
* You make over $250,000. And still can't afford a house.
* You take a bus and are shocked at 2 people carrying on a conversation in English.
* Your child's 3rd grade teacher has two pierced ears, a nose ring and is named "Breeze." And
your friends still need to know if the teacher, a member of the local Republican committee, is male
or female.
* If you speak about "urban transit," you're besieged by attractive young women who want to
"channel."
* You can't remember ... is pot illegal?
* You've been to more than one baby shower that has two mothers and a sperm donor.
* You have a very strong opinion about where your coffee beans are grown and can taste the
difference between Sumatra and Ethiopian. And you know which Brentwood restaurant serves the
freshest arugula.
* A really great parking space can move you to tears.
* You assume every company offers domestic partner
benefits, a fab exercise facility and tofu
takeout.
* You're thinking of taking an adult class but you can't decide between aroma therapy,
conversational mandarin or screening erotic web sites.
* A man walks on the bus in full leather regalia and crotchless chaps. You don't notice.
* A woman walks on the bus with live poultry. You don't notice.
* You think any guy with a George Clooney haircut must be visiting from the Midwest. You know that any woman with a George Clooney haircut is not a tourist.
* Your hairdresser is straight, your plumber is gay, the woman who delivers your mail is into
BDSM and your Mary Kay Cosmetic Lady is someone in drag.

ms. nuyawk: do you *seriously* not understand the concept of satire? Getting offended that I write like a snobby new yorker on gawker is like getting offended that barry humphriess writes dame edna columns like a purple haired old woman.

and no demand for snark? well, you're just dead wrong there. every last one of my editors would beg to differ, and i'm pretty sure they know more about what magazine/newspaper reading audiences want right now than you do, given that most of their assumptions are based on actual empirical data rather than their own personal preferences--analysis rather than solipsism.

i never said i was cool, nor am i trying to be. In fact, I have on several occasions (in print, even) characterized myself as "quiet" and "nerdy" and made no pretense of anything else. you're projecting.

the only thing i'm trying to be is a paid writer. which i am.

"Spelling lessons free to all who care. Some are so refined it hurts."

I certainly didn't mean to hurt anybody.

As friend and fan of Moxie's *and* a regular Gawker reader who's been consistently entertained (inspired, even) by the voice (which is sometimes ambiguously) associated with Spiers--although Ms. NuYawk has a good point about snark overload, regardless of what giants of journalism like Jodi Kantor or Black Book magazine might claim to "know"--it's only now that I'm wondering how much of the persona is Elizabeth's, and how much is Nick Denton's doing ... I mean, given the NYC media culture c. 2003, no one can deny the marketing value of putting a pretty-yet-surly mid-20s Southern Belle at the forefront of Gawker instead of a pasty British ex-prat who's (pushing?) 40, but it probably helps to keep this dynamic in perspective. And isn't that the difference between being a self-directed blogger who takes full responsibility for everything they're credited with writing vs. serving as a cog in a grander media scheme? Sorry, but I don't think you can have it both ways *at the same time*, and that's affirmed by the fact that so much translation and explanation and justification has seemed necessary on Spiers's part.

Elizabeth, I noticed on BuzzMachine that you commented on the reactions to your list serving as proof that "LA people can't handle their culture being picked apart and dissected like New Yorkers can."

I really don't care about the Moxie blogfight at all, but this reaction from you is why your list, and your subsequent attempts to defend it are grating rather than funny -- both the underlying attitude of that particular stab at humor and your attitude in attempting to defending it (as "you" and not Gawker) are merely insulting with nothing to back it up.

The list was un-funny because it didn't sound like you entered the city limits of Los Angeles, and the totally bogus stereotypes you took a stab at are several decades old. If you actually wanted to be snarky about Los Angeles, there are plenty of real targets. I just went to a hipster pho cafe, I have three succulent gardens, I only drink soy milk, and there goes another car alarm. "Tubular?" Fer chrissakes...

(And if you want to discuss what's irritating about LA maybe talk about how all the Williamsburg ex-pats are clogging up the bars in Echo Park, loudly complaining that "Brooklyn is better," before driving back home to Santa Monica...)

But aside from the failure of dated, unsophisticated humor, if the Gawker persona is supposed to be the Manhattan equivalent of a Valley Girl -- ditzy, snooty, clueless -- then that persona should wave ta-ta and proceed to its next grievous misreading. There is indeed a market for that.

But to suggest that the reason you were not funny in this instance has anything to do with people in LA not being able to handle having their culture picked apart -- this means that not only did you not look at LA while you were here, you in fact know almost nothing about "Hell-A," culturally or historically. If you're going to take a stab at insulting something, maybe, like, totally at least watch a movie about it?

Because as far as New Yorkers being able to take insults to their city, the ones I've met are scrupulous about accurate insults -- part of that obnoxious know-it-all persona is actually having some degree of knowledge.

zota - Re-read the buzzmachine comment. It says "IRONICALLY reinforcing"--meaning that i *don't* believe the generalizations are (generally) true.

but as your post--and moxie's--indicate, there appear to be exceptions.

Come on Elizabeth, NuYawk is probably some Manhattanite all hopped up on vicodin recovering from having her little toe hacked off so she can fit into her Manolo Blahnik's.

Zota, actually, posted the only understadable reaction to the list. (It took 57 comments to get there).
LA Observed only quoted 4-6 and 8, creative editing?
1. The statewide removal of all wicker furniture.
2. Does Vanity Fair get royalties for the Oscar party pictures in the bathroom at Morton's? I'm just asking.
3. Media criticism isn't one big creative writing workshop. ("I think your stuff is, like, totally valid, but we'd all be a little more comfortable with what you're saying it if you, like, used more 'giving' language.") A friend's explanation of the impulse: "In LA, you can't really dissect people—even at that superficial level—because there's, like, nothing underneath."
7. The children. Think of the children. [Dong Resin: "Running politicians always do the exact same thing : 'I'm for the children'. Doesn't matter what they're up for. 'I'm the state comptroller that will save our children.' I'll vote for the first motherfucker who announces "Kids? They're kind of self-absorbed, huh. Some of them look weird. They all seem retarded at some point... well, not Haley Joel Osment... he's kind of sexy."]
9. Hare Krishnas should not be allowed to have drums.
10. Dong Resin, again: "I'd never read the LA Times before. A loving profile of Ashton Kutcher is offered right on page one, after the local election news, but before the world news. This is your major newspaper. You are doomed."

You didn't write it alone and you were edited. I'd love to see Nick spring for another trip to Hell-A (2 weeks should do) so you could snark properly. But if you come back pierced, eating tofu, sippin soy milk, talkin about aromatherapy and the urge to plant a succulent garden I'll never forgive him.

Gawker chick you is sublime. Fry your eggless omlettes on me anytime. I apologize for all those here so literal - an(other) footnote of the dreary and self-important.

Elizabeth, here's the full statement you made that I was referring to:

I picked her comment [Moxie's] because I thought it was the clearest example of just not getting the joke (and ironically, directly reinforcing the one of the sweeping generalizations on the list--that LA people can't handle their culture being picked apart and dissected like New Yorkers can.)

So it looks to me that what you wrote is: the commment you responded to was one example of a generalization that you didn't orignially mean seriously, but which now -- ironically -- apprears to be proven true by the response to the generalization.

Am I wrong? Because if you said "ironic" when you meant to say "not really", then your writing needs serious work.

The other more likely option is that you are continuing to pointlessly squirm and protest because you made a sloppy stab at humor. You don't get LA (at all). Big deal -- lot's of people don't. Is it part of the "persona" to never back down? Cause if it is, it's still not funny.

Let me know when that quiet nerd persona emerges. Much more my style...

zota - i have no idea what your point was. none of that made sense. *my* writing needs work?

You didn't understand zota?

Let me make it clear: You're fake.

And, you're not very funny. Well, actually, now you are.

My point was that you are being pointlessly defensive if your original post was in fact a joke written by a snarky semi-fictional gawker persona and not the "real you," which you describe as more of a quiet nerd.

Yet (ironically) your responses have mostly been snarky backlash, laced with the suggestion that people who didn't "get it" are in fact embodying the stereotypes you thought you were only joking about. Has the author intruded into the narrative, or has the narrator invaded the comments boards?

In either case, don't worry about your writing -- I think you've made yourself pretty clear.

I'm sorry, I've read too much of this ...

is ex-post facto neo-ironic good or bad?

The nerd/snarky/edge/etc. paradigm is vanishing to a dimensionless point.

I think we need to return to simpler regional put downs; this, for example, I heard from a Texan:

"Northerners are a lot like hemorrhoids; if they come down and go back up, they're OK but if they come down and stay down, they're a real pain in the ass."

See? Simple.

silly kids (spelling errors and all) relax chill 'and' dont read if you find what gawker writes (not to your liking) me i find humor in both moxie and gawker (though gawker has some great personals AND keeps me up to date on the comings, goings, la la la of nyc) i do think a good many of u dont watch the simpsons nor find six feet under all that interesting

its why we have both chocalate and vanila

now rage on BUT play nice

and yes sad but true -- my public school education never did teach the finer points of to too and two.