cool. that's so fascist
of us.

Strictly speaking, it's not fascist to disallow smoking at the beach. Smokers are welcome, they just can't light up. Under real fascism, smokers wouldn't be allowed to set a toe on the sand, with or without a pack of Luckies.

But, under the ADA, does this statute hold up--are smokers true addicts?

I understand a court has already ruled this law cannot go into effect...

Heard one of the city council members assert on KCBS that a positive by-product of the law would be keeping the image of smoking as an acceptable habit out of the event horizon of minors. You've got to be kidding me. What next? Banning the consumption of alcoholic beverages in family restaurants?

Never underestimate the power of human rationalization and self-delusion.

Some people on a high horse just don't like smoking and will make up any excuse to justify banning it. I mean, come on, bus stops? Like the diesel and car exhaust isn't already 100x worse.

I wonder how many of the fussbudgets on the SaMo city council think the govt, by comparison, has NO business telling people they can't get married to members of the same sex?

Who the hell smokes at the beach anyway? Who -- when faced with all the beauty of nature, the water, the sky, the empty stretches of sand -- responds by lighting up a carcinogen?

What a load of nonsense most of you spout. Evidently McCarthyism has shifted to the so-called left. Fascism? Fascists loved to smoke. But you wouldn't know that. You weren't there.

You spoiled Americans who've never experienced the hardships of war or privation (9/11 and war vets exempted) on your own turf, who've never experienced anything like the terror of fascism, or the murder and repression of nazism, or your late lamented favorite, communism and the failed socialisms of the totalitarian nations you worship, who get your history through movies and TV shows, you have no idea of the importance of words. You debase their meaning by appropriating them for your blanket and ill-informed condemnations against people you merely disagree with.

If you had been there or even were remotely aware of history, you probably would've been among the first to break the windows on Kristallnacht, to throw gays into concentration camps, to round up all those "traitors" not toeing the party line and put them in reeducation camps. The only camps you've probably ever experienced are summer camps or yoga retreats. Well, maybe some of you spent time in Juvenile Detention camps...or should have.

Please. Why don't any of you look beyond your noses for facts and advance arguments that matter to real people in the real world, not this absurd blogosphere in which the same 6 people post inane remarks, then spin those remarks into further idiocy. You're all talking to yourselves. Thank God some people in this world are not as empty-headed and close-minded as all of you appear to be.

Read the literature on second hand smoke and the chemicals in cigarettes. Live in an atmosphere where you're forced to inhale those nauseating fumes in an enclosed space without proper ventilation. I don't want MY kids walking on your butts, inhaling your killer chemicals in any space whatsoever, indoor or out. Feel free to kill yourselves but you don't have a right to kill me or my family.

You're a bunch of sniveling, sarcastic (without the wit), name-calling, political bashing, negative purveyors of the purposeless and pointless. All you are good for is destructive criticism. Knee jerks. Poke heads.

Do any of you even work for a living? Too bad there isn't an intelligence test for voting.
Fortunately you're all quite insignificant everywhere but the blogosphere.

What a load of nonsense most of you spout. Evidently McCarthyism has shifted to the so-called left. Fascism? Fascists loved to smoke. But you wouldn't know that. You weren't there.

You spoiled Americans who've never experienced the hardships of war or privation (9/11 and war vets exempted) on your own turf, who've never experienced anything like the terror of fascism, or the murder and repression of nazism, or your late lamented favorite, communism and the failed socialisms of the totalitarian nations you worship, who get your history through movies and TV shows, you have no idea of the importance of words. You debase their meaning by appropriating them for your blanket and ill-informed condemnations against people you merely disagree with.

If you had been there or even were remotely aware of history, you probably would've been among the first to break the windows on Kristallnacht, to throw gays into concentration camps, to round up all those "traitors" not toeing the party line and put them in reeducation camps. The only camps you've probably ever experienced are summer camps or yoga retreats. Well, maybe some of you spent time in Juvenile Detention camps...or should have.

Please. Why don't any of you look beyond your noses for facts and advance arguments that matter to real people in the real world, not this absurd blogosphere in which the same 6 people post inane remarks, then spin those remarks into further idiocy. You're all talking to yourselves. Thank God some people in this world are not as empty-headed and close-minded as all of you appear to be.

Read the literature on second hand smoke and the chemicals in cigarettes. Live in an atmosphere where you're forced to inhale those nauseating fumes in an enclosed space without proper ventilation. I don't want MY kids walking on your butts, inhaling your killer chemicals in any space whatsoever, indoor or out. Feel free to kill yourselves but you don't have a right to kill me or my family.

You're a bunch of sniveling, sarcastic (without the wit), name-calling, political bashing, negative purveyors of the purposeless and pointless. All you are good for is destructive criticism. Knee jerks. Poke heads.

Do any of you even work for a living? Too bad there isn't an intelligence test for voting.
Fortunately you're all quite insignificant everywhere but the blogosphere.

If smokers could just learn not to throw their butts all over the beach it would never have come to this. Why, oh why, do people who would never dream of throwing a gum wrapper in the sand think it's perfectly okay to treat the world as a giant ashtray?

Merrill: Thanks for the pep talk. I, for one, am humbled by the searing logic of your fiery intellect. I don't smoke, but even I had to light up to properly appreciate the afterglow of having read your post.

People should keep lighting up and living life even if a judge doesn't throw this absurd law out.

I would like to personally apologize to Merril for not being alive during World War II, living in a democratic country and not knowing the first-hand horrors of dictators.

I am so chastised that from now on, I shall refrain from offering any opinions on any subject because I realize that I don't deserve to.

All those brave souls who gave their lives in wars from the Revolution on up weren't really doing me any favors at all. I shall spit on their graves for helping create a comfortable world for me to live in.

And Mr. Ricey, the problem isn't that people leave butts on the beach (which some no doubt do), it's that they thow them out of their car windows and they wash down to the beach from many miles away.

And for the record, I'm a non-smoker who thinks people should be allowed to light up any reasonable place they choose, including the beach. If you don't like being out in public, stay home. Trust me on this, the scent of someone's cigarette from 200 feet away isn't even going to give you a cold.

To all above: Please accept my apologies for accidentally putting my post up twice. I didn't realize I'd done so till checking back just now.

And Alan, I'm not talking about a cigarette at 200 feet away. It's five feet away, ten feet away, and in nonventilated areas. I'm talking about waves of smoke you have to pass through at say, the grocery store where people go outside for their puffs just at the entry door to the store; at outdoor spaces where there really isn't enough separation between smoking and nonsmoking areas. My feeling, and I think this is fair, is that if someone can smell the chemicals or the clove (or other herbal) spice aroma you're making, then you're imposing your pollution on another's space -- and more importantly, their health.

All that multi-paragraph text above to reach the point that smoking in enclosed spaces is bad for non-smokers? Well, duh!

However, school-marm nitpickers have now started bleating about all those environments that exist far beyond merely the enclosed areas (such as a restaurant or store) of a city or neighborhood. And the last time I checked, the coastline doesn't have walls and ceilings. Morever, it's often full of strong breezes.

And, Merril, if you drive a car, it's polluting my air space!

Merril, as far as I could tell, your post wasn't about how far away smokers should be allowed to stand. You were saying that people who've never seen a real Nazi have no business complaining.

There are lots of things I don't like when I step outside my door, e.g., noisy people, ugly people and smelly people, but I just have to brace myself to the fact that I might pass one on the sidewalk. Maybe my scarcasm wasn't sarcastic enough.

Now, if I chance across a smoker wearing a swatsitka on his sleeve, THEN I'll start getting nervous.

I agree, Alan, about smokers throwing their cigs out of cars, onto streets, etc. But my point is that I'll bet the SM City council started addressing this as an issue of littering just as much as one of health. It is, after all, absurd to think that there's a 2nd hand smoke problem at a place where the average wind is 5-10 MPH and where there are, even on a crowded day, dozens of feet of space between people.

ok im only 15 and i m thinking about having a petition in hawaii and i think i am on merrils side no offence but the people that are smoking are
1.wasting time
2.wasting money
3.and most of all wasting your lives. thank you very much you are burning money
and its not that i am in concern about you smoking but what about the litter. ok in hawaii we go fishing right, how about catching a fish with a butt in it great catch huh not.you are not only killing you but you are killing others around you including the animals like fish that eat the butts,or babys sitting on the beach.you are maiking us pay your price as well i dont want to die early because of fools like you.So have fun burning your life away!

The ban on smoking for Santa
Monica Pier and beach is a big mistake, and I find it to be rather misdirected.

Come on, second-hand smoke is clearly not a big problem here, the windiest and most spacious of outdoor places in all of LA. You'd be lucky to get even a percent of the second-hand smoke on the pier or beach with everyone there smoking that you would with just one person smoking in an indoor restaurant.

Litter is a huge problem, for sure. So why don't they increase the penalties for littering instead? I've no problem with that. A night in jail might even be appropriate. But let's point the finger at littering, not smoking.

Many smokers considerately snuff out their cigs and pocket the butts to be deposited in a trash bin at their earliest convenience. There's no reason all smokers could not do this, and a strong anti-littering law would help. Smoking cannot be equated with littering, only inconsiderate smokers litter, and it is the act of littering that should be illegal.

Plus, I worry about all the other pervasive forms of litter on the beach as well, which is certainly not confined to cig butts. What next, ban plastic bags? Soda cans? Any kind of paper? Beat-up shoes? I've seen all this in profusion on the beach as litter, and it is sickening.

Finally, let's note that Angelenos are not big smokers anyways. Who's doing all the smoking at the beach? It's the tourists! Smoking is still hugely pervasive in Europe and Asia, and they all think Californians have gone nuts with all this. Why are we going to punish the tourists disproportionately, after all they provide most of our revenue.

Have any of you particpated in beach cleanups? All you need to do is one to realize how big a problem cigarette butts are on our beaches. For some reason, smokers don't think of their butts as litter (as evidenced by how recklessly they flick them from their cars and onto the beach). Well folks, these toxic babies add up...hundreds of thousands here in California and millions world wide. They are ingested by birds and marine animals that can be killed by them. Kids pick them up and put them in their mouths, and step on lit cigarettes. Secondhand smoke coming from your neighbor on the beach is obnoxious. Why should I have to move to accommodate smokers? Why should I have to pick up after them? What about the rights of nonsmokers to a clean beach and clean air?

Cigarette butt data from The Ocean Conservancy's International Coastal Cleanup

The International Coastal Cleanup, organized annually by The Ocean Conservancy involves more than 500,000 volunteers picking up debris from beaches, rivers and streams around the world. Volunteers complete Marine Debris Data Cards indicating the quantity and type of litter they pick up. Every year during the International Coastal Cleanup, cigarette butts top the list as the most abundant item collected worldwide:

1998 - 1,616,841
1999 - 1,052,373
2000 - 1,369,726
2001 - 1,527,837
2002 - 1,640,614 (cigarettes and other smoking-related products accounted for 30 percent of the debris)
2003 - Still being tabulated

Cigarette butts have topped the list in all the Ocean Conservancy's International Coastal Cleanups since they were added to the Data Cards as a separate item in 1990.